Q: How did you begin dancing?

My mom put me in ballet, but when she took me to the grocery store, I moved in a totally different way. When I was four, my mom put me in a creative dance class that was run by a woman named Ms. Pearl.  I learned modern technique later on but in the beginning I was able to move on my own. Her philosophy was that “the child is the artist” so she gave us a lot of room to move on our own and didn’t really try to “form” us. It was a really cool and creative environment. Like we would pick up a feather, find our starting shape, and move through space. So I grew up with a lot of improvisation and props. Ms.Pearl wasn't only focused on dance either, all arts were involved. Later I got basic modern technique training but it was really focused on performance. The teachers and other professional dancers would guest inside the shows as leads and it was already a lot like dance theater. The business was shut down because of financial reasons and I stopped dancing for a bit. Then I started dancing again at my high school under a woman named Sofia Gorder who danced in NYC and started the dance program at our high school. She was the one who told me I should be a dancer. I was very into math at the time and didn't know if I would make it as a professional dancer so she showed me a bunch of colleges to apply to and I applied and auditioned all over for college and got denied from all of them. Then there was one last audition at the University of Utah (“the U”). I grew up in Salt Lake City and it was hard being Jewish in a Mormon community and I wanted to get out and have some other experiences but the U was the only program that took me in. I think it was because there was no ballet in the audition and there was a lot of improvisation and I think they saw potential in me and gave me a scholarship so I went there for four years. I was really lucky to keep dancing with my high school teacher too who worked on a lot of professional projects and helped me get connected to people. I joined Raw Moves which was a company directed by Natasha Washington. Then my senior year of college I met Johannes Wieland who came as a choreographer for our last concert. I was put into his work and he asked me what I was doing after college and he told me to audition for his company and I ended up being offered an apprenticeship and I took the offer. I had to miss about a month of school, then came back and finished, and then left as soon as it ended. I missed graduation but I was already dancing professionally and I knew I was very lucky. Johannes’ company is in Germany and so for me it was an interesting connection. My grandfather was a Jew who lived in Poland and my whole family perished in the Holocost except for him. He came to NYC and lived the American Dream. He always said “it’s not the German people, don’t blame the German people.” So for me I never had a bad feeling towards Germany, as some Jews might, but it was still so crazy to me that the place where my whole family perished was the place I was going to have my first opportunity to start my career, and in the biggest way I could have ever dreamed. I mean, dancing professionally in Europe was like a big goal of mine and I got to do it right after college. I couldn't help but feel like it was somehow connected to my family history line and that in some way it was a rebirth. I felt so lucky for that opportunity, I got to dance so many amazing works during my time there. I also met Martin there. I was partnered with him in the company and we danced there for a while and quickly became fast friends. Everyone thought we were dating, they basically knew we were going to be together before we did. We thought we were slick but everyone knew we were more than just friends. Martin proposed to me on our very last show. I was dressed as a Gypsy Queen for The Who’s Tommy musical. It was crazy! Everyone knew about it, he got the director to help him work it into the piece and all the technical people too. Everything stopped and my two friends led me to the middle of the stage and he came down and proposed and glitter came down and then the show went on. It was so sweet. We then moved to NYC and our friend who was dancing with us in Brussels, Shannon Gillen, had started her company Vim Vigor and she wanted us to be a part of that. We didn’t leave Europe for Vim Vigor. We had decided we wanted to leave the company and didn't know where we would go and just randomly talked to Shannon and it was just another kizmet timing thing. We danced with Shannon for about three years and then in 2017 we wanted our own artistic avenue and good friends Shaina and Bryan Baira hooked us up with Dance Now with Robin and she gave us our first performance opportunity on the Joe’s Pub stage. Flash forward to now, we have been to over twelve countries to choreograph, teach, and perform. For about a year we traveled and now have been in Salt Lake since September.

Q: What has dance taught you that you have applied to your everyday life and how you engage in the world?

How to be in the present and adapt. Everything in life is a live performance in a way and when things go wrong how do you take them and keep going. I love the spatial awareness aspect of walking through life. I have always found it interesting to weave through people. There’s one thing that I wish would cross over more from dance: I am very clumsy. My dad used to tell me how are you a dancer and still so clumsy? I think dance and the partnership I have with Martin has taught me to take things less personally and to laugh, to not take life so seriously, to savor the moments that we have. I think that is something I always loved about live performance; it is so fleeting and that is both beautiful and sad, and so is life. How to be grateful and take in the moment. Now, especially this time is teaching me to not rush and we just don't sit with each moment usually. Each moment is creating and adding to us.

Q: Has dance helped you overcome any hardships in your life?

I am very fortunate to have grown up very privileged. I did not struggle financially as a kid. The only thing I struggled with was feeling, as a woman, not fitting the mold. I didn't have any ballet training and I am very much built like a tank. So I think that I was overlooked a lot and often not placed as a soloist. I think certain people saw uniqueness in me but I didn't get into any colleges I wanted to mostly probably because of technique but I do remember a director was looking at me and he said I looked too strong. That’s always kind of been the thing, like I look too big or too ripped. I think I always struggled with that. Getting accepted to the University of Utah and having people that really believed in me definitely gave me confidence to keep going. Dancing for Raw Moves too. It was a passion project, people were there for the love for it, and everyone was celebrated for who they were. I was celebrated for being able to lift people and celebrated for being strong. I think a lot of it also comes from my family teaching me there is no one way to be a woman. My mom is a very strong woman and I take a lot of inspiration from her. I also wanted to prove women could do more than be this decorative beautiful thing. I wanted to be able to do what the men could do like jump and roll and lift. I think I’ve always been like that and that has also gotten me into trouble sometimes because I have to accept that I am not always that strong and that’s also okay. I am strong but I also have softness and fluidity. Johannes was also a defining moment for me. You go to a new place but you kind of expect the same things. I think in American culture we label women and men in dance in a very gendered way. Everything is gendered and compared to these ideals. It is hard to get out of that way of thinking. I was lucky to not feel this at school so much. But when I went to Germany I remember thinking “I can't do it like that, I can’t do it like other people,” and Johannes would say “I don’t want you to look like anyone else, I picked you because I wanted you.” He had this huge range of people and that was such a beautiful thing to be a part of, everyone was taken for their uniqueness. And that has also influenced my own preferences as a choreographer. I also want to see women who are like me, who are maybe a little bit raw dont have the technique but who have potential. It has changed the way we look for dancers. We want performers, not just dancers, but someone who is a whole person.

Q: Do you believe dance can be a platform for social justice topics? If so, how? and/or Have you used your art form to make a difference?

Definitely and no. I think that dance in education is absolutely a powerful tool to unite people, and give people autonomy over their own body, to create your own boundaries, to teach the way you can touch people safely and navigate through people, and trust people. I have always wanted to create a program where I bring my community together with police officers. This idea came out of frustration with police brutality and I think the problem is they don't know their community. I always thought if I could collect a diverse community and bring them together with police officers then everyone could do trust exercises and discuss. I wouldn't make them dance but I believe that through that contact and discussion and having those experiences together you get to know people in a different way and you can see them as human and I think dance is very powerful for that. My problem with dance performance as social justice is that sometimes the subject is too heavily relied on. “This is a powerful performance because it talks about _______”, but what about the quality of the work? And you feel you can't critique or criticize it because it is about a certain topics. That is where it gets tricky. We still need to hold ourselves accountable for researching and producing good material. Just because you have a hot, current topic that can affect people and pull on people's emotional side, it doesn't mean you don't have to back it up with substance and process, maybe even more so. Meredith Monk said something along the lines of “in your performances, they should either bring light to social justice or they should be a reflector for audiences or you should be solving the problem and offering a solution.” I thought that was beautiful and I totally agree with that and I think dance performance is an opener for people to dream and take people away from this world. It can be a distraction. I think sometimes we need a break from how heavy our lives are and believe in humanity again and show in performance something magical, give people an idea that miraculous things can happen. That is why I want my performers to be seen as people not just dancers. I want people to be able to relate to the performers and to see the capability of the dancers to be human and see the body move in these amazing ways and see themselves a little bit in that. I think we need that relatability in performance. I think it’s two-fold. Hopefully your work does open peoples eyes to new perspectives, I think that is such a beautiful thing it can do, it is such a powerful medium. I just think that the reason we don't reach people sometimes is because we are so insular in our own brains so it becomes too abstract to people. So the question is how do we reach a hand out to the audience to invite them in so they feel like they belong in the theater. So then the work is not just for dancers it is for everyone, that is the goal. In that way, even if your work isn’t about social justice, the work you create can span a huge amount of people who are then sitting in the theater together and you create this communal experience they can talk about together.

Q: How has the COVID-19 pandemic affected you as a performing artist?

Luckily I am a paraprofessional at West High School so I still get to work there from home, so I am very thankful for that. Martin is not getting paid right now, he had another job with a company called CGT but we are on my income only right now. We are also at my parents house now. You know, thirty and thriving! All joking aside though, I am very grateful I have a good relationship with my parents and that we can give each other space and that we are fortunate enough to be here. This was supposed to be temporary because we were very close to getting our own place and then this all happened. So here we are. All of our projects are cancelled, all of our travel is cancelled. We were excited about a new project coming up at Kingsbury. We had taken on thirteen dancers from the local scene here, this would have been our first project with Utah Presents from Kingsbury. So many young new dancers that we were really excited about and it was cancelled and it was hard to break the news to everyone. I feel like in this moment it has been beautiful the way the dance community shows up and also though sometimes unhealthy that we push productivity. We are also offering free live classes because I wanted to show up for my community. I know there is a debate whether to charge or give free class. I respect everyone and their choices, it’s up to individual people and they should choose, but I think it should be mostly donation based, we’re all in the same position here. Teachers shouldn't be obligated to teach for free, they’re just trying to pay their rent and survive, but also how can other dancers and students pay with no work? I have found it beautiful to be able to connect with people like that. My mom has been joining in for online class which is hilarious and wonderful. She just kind of does her own thing and I let her fly and it’s great. We are going to take a break from those live classes, though. I never really took the time to pause myself. Everyone needs to do their own individual thing but I do think we have to take the time to mourn this new life. It's ok to slow down and not take any dance classes and not be training right now. Let’s not pretend we can make our lives the same. This is a moment to let ourselves be bored, let the mind unwind. We have the time to actually slow down so let’s do that. And then when you feel you can be creative again, do it, but I don't want to put pressure on people. I want to encourage people to sit in this new normal. Martin has been in his dungeon downstairs making music, cooking up some other plans that will come out soon. So he has been very creative. I think that’s just kind of who he is, he just doesn't stop. But for him music is slowing down, that is his tunnel of heaven. It has been kind of cool because our lives had started to go in two different ways which was hard for me to accept at first, which was partly why I was so excited about the Kingsbury project because we hadn't done something together in awhile. And now we have all these new ideas and we are brainstorming together again and there is this new fresh creative energy between us. It didn’t happen immediately, like everyone else in the beginning we were just shell shocked. But now it’s been cool. We live in the basement now and dig into ideas together and also nurture each other as individuals. I think that’s something we’ve learned over the years but that has become even more prevalent recently. My project doesn't have to be his project and his project doesn’t have to be my project. Even though we are one company, we can still be individuals inside of that, still nurture each other as individuals.

Q: What other interests have you delved deeper into during this time?

I have been making a lot of videos, I’ve always liked making videos. I’ve been making posters, in a very humble way, not anything amazing. I enjoy that and I love cooking. If my mom reads this she would be like, “What? I cook!” She does. I help her more like, and I have cooked a couple times. I have the intentions of doing some other things I have not yet done. I guess kind of creating this online class thing has been interesting. How to move in a small space. I think sometimes I feel frustrated for people that I can't physically be there for them. I also have more space than a lot of people do so I’ve felt very conflicted about that. Like do I show that and be there or is that frustrating for others? There has been some talk about doing a basic floor work class which I think we are going to try to start. People have expressed interest in doing something more basic and I think it might be better for a smaller space. But it has been really cool to put parameters on myself to make moves in a smaller way but so that it still feels like we can do a phrase. I didn't know what to expect but we are connecting with people all over the world. I miss my people in NYC and I miss my Gibney community and San Francisco and LA people and Europe people and the people from South Africa and Mexico and Iran saying hello and I'm like this is insane how this platform can connect us from all over the world. I like that part. I like watching peoples’ comments come up and being able to say hi to one another and enjoy that we are able to be together in another way. I think that was the impetus for wanting to do online classes, wanting to create that sense of community, not to pressure people into thinking they have to train. I don’t feel that way at all, we just wanted to be there for people to have the opportunity to move if they wanted to and see each other. I think many feel guilty to not train. I want to encourage people to take a break. We are at home. How much can we really train? Let's not put unnecessary pressure on ourselves. For one moment in our lives things have totally changed. Let that moment be real and not feel like we have to run back to our old normal. I want to relieve anyone of guilt. There should be no guilt about taking class or not taking class. I think it's okay to not do any class during this time at all, zero. I think the cool thing is that you can kind of shop for classes when you want though. It's a great way to look for classes you maybe have always wanted to take or try and you can pop in and out and decide if it’s for you or not. Also get away from dance. Don’t look at any classes. Don't move at all. There is such a beauty in being bored. We never have time for that in our lives and now we do. So many new ideas can come out, related to dance or not. And you can ask yourself what else are you interested in? What else can you do to nourish yourself in a different way? Let me be clear, not to be productive. If you want to binge watch TV or blow through a series of books, do it. People should not feel guilty about anything they need to do at home right now. We need to take care of ourselves and process this all and everyone does that in such different ways.

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Q: Using the idea of "world making" how do you imagine the performing arts world after the pandemic?

In my world we would go to a place where talented dancers are able to still train without having to have money. I guess the whole thing around money would be what I want to shift. There would be huge funds to support emerging artists and a diverse group of people that we are actually giving voice to, people who wouldn't otherwise be able to. Right now the problem is that a lot of things are run financially so if you have the means to pay for it you can get ahead. MOVE|NYC| is actually doing this; they are creating a tuition free program for young kids. They are starting it from exactly where they need to. Young dancers are getting free access to training and performing and mentorship. It’s amazing. That kind of program would be world wide, everyone would have an opportunity to do that. So that if you’re talented and driven you can still train. I would broaden the gaze of what we think is relevant in education. You do not have to be a highly trained ballet dancer to be a successful performer. Diversity of training is beautiful and also maybe more of cultivating the individual rather than shaping them to one thing, letting the individual voice come out more. So then we have more differences in the work we are actually looking at. So we are not seeing the same echo chamber of movements and performances, we are seeing very individualistic things that have been very dug into. I think also space for people to dig into those things, space for people who want to create to be able to develop it in their own way. For dancers to have a union so that every dancer is taken care of, so there is a baseline we get paid minimum and that increases with professional experience. Tiers for people to get experience. As a dancer people have a hard time auditioning for things because people ask for 2-3 years experience right off the bat. So to sum that all up, from a young age we’re cultivating individuals and giving opportunities to talented people, and the word talent is broad and is not defined only by flexibility and technique but creative voice and having something original or a strong presence. So all of these things are considered and regardless of their financial situation, they get to be part of this training. And then towards college we have contemporary and more worldly teachers teaching, along with people who represent our history, and we actually talk about how to manage money. Or maybe in this new world we have no money. That would be a brilliant thing. Because greed is really the thing that ruins us all. I would want movement in every single school to nurture the individual and then every single state to have their own theater that houses all the performing arts and that is connected to its city. People get to come and watch and there is open training and more exchange. There would be more places for people to be able to present work. I would love to see more diverse voices being able to show work and I would love those people to have enough time and support to create something of substance. I feel we are so rushed and we never have enough money so everything is so quick. And to have dance be more accessible to everyone. I don’t think art should be free… but maybe if we didn't have money and we could trade things… I feel like sometimes there’s no access to art because it’s too expensive and I don't want art to feel out of reach for people. I know people have to make money but what if there was one free show for people who can’t afford it? So that it’s more inclusive and also so then the voices that are out there are more diverse and can represent more of everyone in the community. Also if we could kind of get rid of judgment so that you could actually see the person for the creativity they have, that you’re not judging them on their bios or how they look or things like that. If there was a way to wipe that so there was a blanket slate to open up opportunities for people. If we could present work that is not just beautiful but impactful.